OT: Need advice on dealing with unreasonable attorney fees

[glepore]

I did law for 30ish years. I can say with certainty that no one here can tell you whether 10 hours to prepare for a pretrial hearing/conference is reasonable or not unless they had an understanding of the jurisdiction- not just the state, but the county, and what is normally done at such a proceeding. Its different everywhere. If significant issues involved and actual decisions made, then not suspect. If scheduling and evidence stuff, probably suspect. But again, I wouldn't guess which.

Sounds like a) you live in a place with a very high cost of living, based on those fees or b) you have very significant assets to protect and a hotly contested divorce. Those hourly rates are up there. Are you dealing with a partner level guy at "the" domestic firm in your area?

Most county bar associations have a fee dispute committee that will arbitrate these sort of things, but, as you might expect, there is a level of benefit of doubt given to the bar member.

And yes, each time you change atty's you're likely going to have some fee duplication due to file review. Like maybe 25% or higher.

This thread is a perfect example of why all of this stuff needs to be hashed out well in advance of retaining a professional.

[glepore]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

Well, what does that have to do with you? I don’t mean to be rude or overly probing, but it doesn’t seem at all clear to me.

Most jurisdictions provide for spousal support prior to a final distribution of assets if the spouse claiming it doesn't have sufficient sole assets or economic ability to produce, pending a final disposition of the case. Only fair, otherwise you could use a "starve them out" tactic to pressure.
Works both ways, I've seen an fair number of men claim/get it.

[ariw]

Divorce sucks, I just finalized mine last fall, over 2 years after separation. My ex fought every step of the way, much to her eventual financial detriment. My attorney estimated that she spent $100K+ between attorney and accountant fees. My expenses were far, far less than that.

As others have pointed out, you should carefully manage your attorney's time. This means asking if a paralegal can address an issue/question/task, as well as preparing your communications (usually emails) so that they are organized and documented in a way that allows them to work on your case efficiently. When it comes to phone calls, stay focused on the specific issues that you and they have planned to address and don't be afraid to tell them that you are trying to save money by minimizing their time on certain tasks. Also, regularly ask them what you can do to assist in terms of providing documentation, talking to third parties, etc. I was like a broken record with this issue, something that my attorney and I were able to laugh about.

Finally, one of the best things that my attorney did for me was set reasonable expectations for what could be achieved at various stages. This made decision-making much easier overall and reduced some of the emotional burden. If this isn't happening, you may need to push your attorney in this area.

Good luck, there is a light at the end of tunnel.

[CNY rider]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

The one thing I learned through some real estate dealings is to find an attorney with a good paralegal.

Usually the attorney will bill out at a big hourly fee, but the paralegal will bill out much less, and does the bulk majority of the day to day work, saving a ton of money.

With regard to the bill you already racked up, without hiring another attorney to fight that bill, I doubt there is going to be much you can do to get out of it; especially since you just fired him, he's unlikely to have any sympathy for you and cut you a deal.

Really sucks though, I feel terrible anyone has to go through this and literally be drained of money. Makes buying a custom Firefly look like a bargain.

Hang in there pal.

Nick as usual your advice is spot on.
In my new career I now deal with attorneys almost daily.
I'm working with single person firms, small multi-person firms, and large firms in all areas of the country.
I'm a very expensive resource for the attorneys and my observation is that the attorneys who have para-legals make much more effective use of my time which ultimately saves them (and by extension their clients) a lot of money.
It also helps me do a better job when I can get records requests filled in a timely manner, and set up calls and meeting efficiently. The practices that are the best at doing that have great paralegals. The ones that are bad at it all share one characteristic: They don't have paralegals.

[HenryA]

You might or might not be able to dispute the billing. That should be covered in your agreement with your lawyer - read it. Your bilings seem high, but as much for the hourly rate as any hours billed. Around here a $600 divorce lawyer is for the rich folks. Mediation may be your friend, even though you "have reasons". None of which is legal advice, but I do suggest you talk with your attorney about your options. You really should have a detailed, frank and perhaps even brutal conversation about your affairs with your attorney.

[old fat man]

Did you hire Harvey Specter?

[klasse]

In California, attorney fee disputes may be resolved through binding arbitration if the client chooses to do so. It's under Bus Prof Code section 6200 et seq. I am not sure about other states.

I'm having deja vu because I remember a very similar post on this forum a few months ago.

[djg21]

Originally Posted by iamconfused

Long time user here... posting on my burner account in order to remain anonymous...

I hate to have to ask here, but I love you guys, and maybe someone has been in a similar situation and can shed some light on what I can do here...

Long story short, im in the middle of a divorce, and I just fired my second attorney (who im referring to in this post). Right before I let him go, I got an invoice for past services. Here's the run-down:

-Hired this guy in January to take over my first attorney. Paid his $7,500 retainer.

-Got a bill mid-March. The date-range for this bill was 2/13 - 3/07 and the total amount was $4,400, which depleted my retainer, so after retainer was exhausted, I owed $1,900. So im in with this guy at this point for $9,400..

-A fact I think is relevant.. on Tax Day, I let my attorney know that i needed to sell my car in order to pay a huge(almost 5-figure) IRS bill due to getting screwed over by my soon-to-be-ex-wife. A few days later, i got a call from my lawyer talking briefly about the case, and then he mentioned that he has been meaning to send over a billing invoice.. I was confused and said I had just paid him the $1,900 from the invoice a month ago. He said he'll get back to me.

-Toward the end of April, I got this invoice.... over $10,000... date range was 3/12 - 4/09... granted we did have to go to court for pre-trial; that was $2140 plus a $9 travel fee... the rest of the line items have vague descriptions like "Contact with counsel", "Contact with client", "Follow up with x". "Prepare", etc... stated 6 line items which included some form of "Preparing for pre-trial" totaling to almost $6k (almost 10 hours billed for pre-trial prep)

My ex/her attorney are being super stubborn and completely unreasonable and my attorney didnt seem too confident about what to do. He only was sure that I "do not want to go to trial", even though I told him that mediation will not work with my ex(I have reasons)....

So I suspect what happened was, he knew I was in a tough place with having to sell my car to pay the IRS, and he threw out this ridiculous bill to me in order to scare me into settling in to the opposing-counsel's unreasonable proposal for resolution... Thats all i could think of... he didn't give me any real warning that a huge bill was coming at all.

To put things in perspective, I had my first attorney($400/hr) for 6 months and he's who filed for my divorce and did all sorts of the initial paperwork and whatnot. In 6 months, i spent $10k on him, and that includes us going to the court one day for almost the same amount of time I was at pre-trial with my second lawyer.. This second attorney($595/hr), I had for roughly 3 months, and after this bill, im at almost $20k!

Is this real life? What can I do to fight this??

Depending on the State you are in, you may have an ability to arbitrate. But it’s not hard for a lawyer to legitimately burn through a client’s money like that if they are doing work and your adversary and her attorney are difficult.

Litigation, and presumably contested divorces, can be expensive, and you largely get the quality of representation you pay for.

[holliscx]

For our Hispanic audience, deberías llamar a Saul

[jimcav]

but I did have an issue where we had an attorney, and there was all sorts of dubious billing. I 1) got an invoice, with no detail/explanation of the billing. Later, 2)I'd pay an invoice, only to see it on the next invoice.

so 1) I asked for detailed breakdown off the charges.
Obviously, not much I can challenge on "preparation" or "drafting X", but there were charges attached to emails and calls. It was pretty easy to point out there were no such calls/emails at the time/date specified.

2) double-billing was pretty obvious.

I challenged 2 invoices, then got the double billing, called them on it, got a final invoice (which again attempted to charge for things already done or implausible since last payment--there had been ZERO activity on the case since the last invoice). I pointed all this out, and said my next letter would be cc'd to BBB, Bar Association, the local news channel consumer protection guy, and the county DA. He replied that my account was paid/up to date and we parted ways.

[verticaldoug]

I've seen several of my friends go down paths where they ended up having a knife fight with each other. It destroys so much built up wealth. If she is trying the disability scam etc, you need to be careful, she may be of the mind set which really eats up value in legal fees. I'd try to expedite this as quickly as possible. Good luck

[carpediemracing]

Writing to sympathize and to vent a bit.

Good friend went through divorce. Known the couple for.. 20 years? A long time. The wife is the friend. Husband was friendly but I never got a "best friend" kind of feel from him. I've only really heard her side but some of the things seem wacky. For example, she was the bread earner, educational person, and carefully budgeted her money so that they'd have 3 months of living expenses covered when there was no income from her. He worked a lower paying job and there was no way they could make it through the summer without her saving a lot of her salary.

Well, he repeatedly emptied the summer money on his own, and bought stuff for himself with it. Not really necessary nor practical - in the bike world it might be paying for three or four full custom frames and matching build kits. That esoteric and that individualized.

For some reason his emptying the summer funds doesn't mean anything in the scheme of the divorce (it happened while they were in talks but before he lawyered up). He also maxed out his credit cards before some kind of "inventory" was taken near the end, and then said he was cash poor and had credit card debt (he bought, in bike language, more custom frames and more build kits). She, on the other hand, had been saving to buy a house (because he was forcing the sale of their house, and he was going to live with his parents, and she was going to buy a house), and because she had a lot of money in the bank (many tens of thousands of dollars that she saved after the lawyering up started), she had to give half of it to him. Not only that, she has to give half her retirement to him, up front.

I can see how a lot of these laws were supposed to protect, say, a non-working spouse who took care of the house and 3 kids or whatever, but he wasn't doing that PLUS he was spending all their money on his stuff. I think the laws weren't written with this kind of situation in mind, and her lawyer wasn't as slick as his. Otherwise he'd have said to not save money, etc.

I thought it was all over but he keeps suing her for this or that. Minor things but she has to go to court. I think it'll be never ending. It's horrible.

[Ralph]

This thread reminds me of how different things are these days from 40 years ago.

My wife and I decided to split up. Both had good jobs. We agreed the welfare of the kids came first.

I asked her to divorce me and I would agree to anything reasonable.

We drew up the agreement. Adequate child support, alimony for 3 years. I would pay for kids college, etc.

I never hired an attorney; she hired one to put our agreement in court. judge agreed to what we wanted to do. I payed her lawyer $250.

Divorce is never a good thing, but we did the best we could. Hopefully this one works out also. So far looks like only the lawyers are winning.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by Ralph

This thread reminds me of how different things are these days from 40 years ago.

My wife and I decided to split up. Both had good jobs. We agreed the welfare of the kids came first.

I asked her to divorce me and I would agree to anything reasonable.

We drew up the agreement. Adequate child support, alimony for 3 years. I would pay for kids college, etc.

I never hired an attorney; she hired one to put our agreement in court. judge agreed to what we wanted to do. I payed her lawyer $250.

Divorce is never a good thing, but we did the best we could. Hopefully this one works out also. So far looks like only the lawyers are winning.

Amen Ralph. Well said.

I also echo vdoug’s comments. For most families; erasing $100k due to infighting could be a crippling blow. Hard to imagine.

I think one of my high school girlfriends took off with half my CD collection. Guess I got off easy

[glepore]

Originally Posted by Ralph

This thread reminds me of how different things are these days from 40 years ago.

My wife and I decided to split up. Both had good jobs. We agreed the welfare of the kids came first.

I asked her to divorce me and I would agree to anything reasonable.

We drew up the agreement. Adequate child support, alimony for 3 years. I would pay for kids college, etc.

I never hired an attorney; she hired one to put our agreement in court. judge agreed to what we wanted to do. I payed her lawyer $250.

Divorce is never a good thing, but we did the best we could. Hopefully this one works out also. So far looks like only the lawyers are winning.

Its not time. My divorce worked the same way. It's outlook and expectations of entitlement.
The only folks that make out in a contested divorce with less than 2 m plus in assets is, well, you know