OT: Need advice on dealing with unreasonable attorney fees

[XXtwindad]

Honestly, this thread scares the **** out of me. How do people get to this place? Are there no red flags?

[Louis]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

Honestly, this thread scares the **** out of me. How do people get to this place? Are there no red flags?

I'm not so sure I'd call this an objective source of information, but they do mention a few reasons here:

https://aaml.org/wp-content/uploads/MAT211-1.pdf

[AngryScientist]

Here is the bit that I have a hard time understanding:

When two people are married, it's basically a contract. There are very specific laws and rules and stuff that define that contract, and the provisions of that contract as far as I can tell.

Why, when people get divorced, is there so much left up to arbitration? Why is it more than black and white. Some formula you can plug into an excel spreadsheet and determine the outcome? Why is it necessary to have 10s of thousands of dollars of expert lawyers argue a case?

Especially in the OPs scenario, reasonably young people with no kids splitting up? Sounds easy to me. Of course I understand it's not, but it seems like an unnecessary degree of legal bloat involved in what should be a reasonably simple process.

The average American family can do their annual taxes on Turbotax and reasonably easily figure out what they owe the government and what the government owes them. They do it every year. I like to think of the government as my crazy x wife who demands a portion of my salary every year, but I accept the process. Why cant we just have a turbotax software for divorce and be done with it for $59.99??

[Louis]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

Why cant we just have a turbotax software for divorce and be done with it for $59.99??

And how much money would the lawyers make, if it were that easy?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

Here is the bit that I have a hard time understanding:

When two people are married, it's basically a contract. There are very specific laws and rules and stuff that define that contract, and the provisions of that contract as far as I can tell.

Why, when people get divorced, is there so much left up to arbitration? Why is it more than black and white. Some formula you can plug into an excel spreadsheet and determine the outcome? Why is it necessary to have 10s of thousands of dollars of expert lawyers argue a case?

Especially in the OPs scenario, reasonably young people with no kids splitting up? Sounds easy to me. Of course I understand it's not, but it seems like an unnecessary degree of legal bloat involved in what should be a reasonably simple process.

The average American family can do their annual taxes on Turbotax and reasonably easily figure out what they owe the government and what the government owes them. They do it every year. I like to think of the government as my crazy x wife who demands a portion of my salary every year, but I accept the process. Why cant we just have a turbotax software for divorce and be done with it for $59.99??

In your tax analogy, a divorce more closely resembles an IRS audit of on an individual sole proprietor who now has to go back and find records documenting and categorizing all of his income and expenses for multiple years.

That's not what $59.99 TurboTax does for you.

[djg21]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

Here is the bit that I have a hard time understanding:

When two people are married, it's basically a contract. There are very specific laws and rules and stuff that define that contract, and the provisions of that contract as far as I can tell.

Why, when people get divorced, is there so much left up to arbitration? Why is it more than black and white. Some formula you can plug into an excel spreadsheet and determine the outcome? Why is it necessary to have 10s of thousands of dollars of expert lawyers argue a case?

Especially in the OPs scenario, reasonably young people with no kids splitting up? Sounds easy to me. Of course I understand it's not, but it seems like an unnecessary degree of legal bloat involved in what should be a reasonably simple process.

The average American family can do their annual taxes on Turbotax and reasonably easily figure out what they owe the government and what the government owes them. They do it every year. I like to think of the government as my crazy x wife who demands a portion of my salary every year, but I accept the process. Why cant we just have a turbotax software for divorce and be done with it for $59.99??

There are questions regarding marital property, custody and child support when kids are involved, and ongoing support obligations. There are no pro forma answers to these questions. Pre-nuptial agreements can address some of these issues in advance and simplify divorce proceedings.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

...
Why, when people get divorced, is there so much left up to arbitration? Why is it more than black and white. Some formula you can plug into an excel spreadsheet and determine the outcome? Why is it necessary to have 10s of thousands of dollars of expert lawyers argue a case?

Because marriages usually end with hatred and anger between the two parties. That leads to a fight, real and/or legal, with the intent to "win" or at least hurt the other party because in the end we are just animals who happen to have opposable thumbs.

[glepore]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

Here is the bit that I have a hard time understanding:

When two people are married, it's basically a contract. There are very specific laws and rules and stuff that define that contract, and the provisions of that contract as far as I can tell.

Why, when people get divorced, is there so much left up to arbitration? Why is it more than black and white. Some formula you can plug into an excel spreadsheet and determine the outcome? Why is it necessary to have 10s of thousands of dollars of expert lawyers argue a case?

Especially in the OPs scenario, reasonably young people with no kids splitting up? Sounds easy to me. Of course I understand it's not, but it seems like an unnecessary degree of legal bloat involved in what should be a reasonably simple process.

The average American family can do their annual taxes on Turbotax and reasonably easily figure out what they owe the government and what the government owes them. They do it every year. I like to think of the government as my crazy x wife who demands a portion of my salary every year, but I accept the process. Why cant we just have a turbotax software for divorce and be done with it for $59.99??

In addition to the answers already given, most states now are "equitable distribution" where if the parties don't agree, a court needs to look at all of the circumstances of both parties, determine what assets are "marital" and which are "seperate" and then "equitably" divide the marital assets based on need and economic ability. This accounts for endless factors. Some states still factor "fault" in, many don't.
Black and white sounds fine in theory, but often one spouse gives up career opportunities for family care or to advance the others career opportunities. Illness, disability etc all factor in.
Even who pays the attorneys gets factored in at times.
Mediation and agreement are a much better solution, but folks under stress often don't act like mature adults.

[saab2000]

When my ex and I went our separate ways she took what was hers and I took what was mine, meaning she got most things!

There were no kids involved and we both acted like adults. No lawyers. Just filed the requisite paperwork and signed it. I didn’t get married for financial reasons and so my divorce didn’t involve any real exchange of money either.

We are still friends today. What a concept.

[GregL]

Snip:

Originally Posted by glepore

Black and white sounds fine in theory, but often one spouse gives up career opportunities for family care or to advance the others career opportunities. Illness, disability etc all factor in.

These become huge factors and can backfire in unexpected ways when put before a judge. I was warned by several attorneys (both my divorce attorney and friends who are attorneys) to NOT bring up my ex-wife's mental health in the context of the divorce. If her attorney knew the issues, they could have been used against me to demand more spousal support for a longer period of time. With this advice in mind, I counseled my attorney (oh, the irony!) to keep our discussions and negotiations with my ex and her attorney very friendly and peaceful. I knew that if we could keep my ex calm and rationale, the proceedings would complete much faster (and less expensively!).

Snip:

Originally Posted by saab2000

We are still friends today. What a concept.

Definitely not friends with my ex, but we are polite and respectful. Nearly all divorced couples have to deal with each other for the rest of their lives. I don't want those interactions to be stressful, especially for my daughter's sake. Anger and hate are cancers that will eat you up from the inside. Why subject yourself to those emotions if you can avoid it?

Greg

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by saab2000

When my ex and I went our separate ways she took what was hers and I took what was mine, meaning she got most things!

There were no kids involved and we both acted like adults. No lawyers. Just filed the requisite paperwork and signed it. I didn’t get married for financial reasons and so my divorce didn’t involve any real exchange of money either.

We are still friends today. What a concept.

Great post. I think that one of the main reasons so many divorces are nasty is lack of parity. If a lack of parity precedes a relationship, it’s foolhardy to think its dissolution will result in equanimity.